Deathly Hallows Discussion
Okay, you’ve had a couple days to read. It’s time to discuss. However, I’ve modified the front page of w-g so that you won’t get inadvertently spoiled by the “recent comments” over there on the right. If you want to find out what happens, you’re going to have to click on this link.The first thing I want to talk about is the flayed baby. Any theories on what it all means? Is it the bit of Voldemort’s soul that was inside Harry (hence it’s in limbo too, because he just killed it), or is it just some symbolic evil death thing?
Deathly Hallows Discussion
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40 responses
This is me, testing my script to hide spoilers on the front page. MUFFLIATO!
That was my take on it as well. Wonder where the other bits were writhing…from the cup, etc.
One of my co-workers just announced that she thought the epilogue was the WORST epilogue she’d ever read. I can see what she’s getting at. I mean, I was thrilled to get confirmation that everybody lived happily ever after, but it did feel a little bit like fan fiction, didn’t it? (And I would definitely make fun of a kid named “Albus Severus.”)
I think the flayed baby thing was the chunk of Voldy’s soul inside Harry.
The epilogue really was fanfic as written by a 14 year old on ff.net. One big happy Weasley family, and all. Scorpius?
Also – man, there’s a lot of inbreeding in the Wizarding world, isn’t there? They probably have more genetic diseases than the Amish.
Perhaps the baby was Voldemort’s entire soul, and each time a horcrux was destroyed, it flayed (urk) the baby. Perhaps once Neville killed the snake (or Harry defeated Voldemort), the baby “died” properly?
grr epilogue – It’s obviously her way of saying that nothing exciting never happened in the wizarding world ever again so don’t expect any more books. Was terrible… I am tempted to rip those pages out of my book!
However, I was soo happy that I was right on a few things – snape loving lily, the locket belonging to black, harry being a horcrux, dumledore planning his death… however, I think it was done sooo much better that I could have ever imagined.
Loved Hogwarts up in arms – I was having flashbacks to season 3 finale of buffy where all of sunnydale high decides to fight.
PS – kris, your tonks was way better than the hollywood version!
I LOVED Ms. Weasley: ‘don’t touch my child you BITCH!’. That was worth the price of the book all by itself.
But yeah, the epilogue was pretty cheezy. Do you think she’s setting up the second series? Hogwarts the next generation?
I really liked how Nevill stepped up at the end. His character is my new favourite. And jeez, the body count was higher than a Tarantino flick!
PPS – so glad Neville didn’t die!
Somebody on Ravelry pointed out that Neville was more of a badass in this book than Harry’s been in the last 3 combined. I liked that.
Eh, I didn’t hate the epilogue as much as most people. In fact, I liked the way that it pretty much put the kibosh on any further Harry adventures. It’s like, “GET OVER IT, PEOPLE. WE’RE DONE.” Which I can respect. This whole business of writing petitions and stuff to force her to continue? Lame. If I was here, I would’ve been sorely tempted to kill him off and end the issue. (Although as poor Arthur Conan Doyle can attest, even that plan doesn’t always work…)
I loved the ending because it was exactly as I would have wanted it for my own little wizards. I think she tightened just about every loose end I could think of; and don’t mind the fanfic aspects, maybe she is paying tribute in a way. And as Kris points out, we do need to move on. I may have to reread all the Pullman books before I start on the books from last Christmas though.
Yes, an awful lot of inbreeding…
I figure that is nearly all English wizarding children go to Hogwarts that’s really not that many children, and if they all marry each other then oh dear. I guess they can get rid of those extra toes with a flick of the wand.
Plus how many people marry the guy they snogged at school? even if they did bond during a time of great stress. Sometimes you have to remember that HP is primarily a children’s book.
I am so happy JK didn’t let me down on the whole Snape loves Lily and is really the best damn guy in the whole book. I love Snape. (this is helped a great deal by Alan Rickman being the movie Snape, i love him too)
I thought the Molly/Bellatrix fight was hilarious.
I’m so pleased it was a good end. Though the epilogue was a bit too saccarine sweet. Life goes on and apparently once you leave school it’s all very boring.
I just remembered one of my favorite aspects of the book: There aren’t any moral absolutes anymore. In Book 1 you had Good Guys and Bad Guys, because it was a simple story for younger kids. Here we are in Book 7… and now we know that things aren’t really like that. Dumbledore, James, Sirius, Lupin, Ron, X. Lovegood… They all fail to live up to an ideal, and that’s okay. Even Molly Weasley, as perfect a mother figure as you could imagine, was being selfish and annoying in the leadup to the wedding. And then of course there’s Snape, who was never quite what he seemed. Even Draco and his parents were allowed to be seen in a sympathetic light. The only person who deals in absolutes is Voldemort, and it’s his inability to accept his own limitations that drives him to try to conquer death in the first place.
Pretty heady concept for a kids’ book.
Another example: Kreacher. I absolutely loved that all it took to win Kreacher over was a kind word.
In essentials it ended up fairly much as I expected, and I knew it was going to, especially after the Deathly Hallows were explained. Did anyone else find it somewhat pathetic that Hermoine’s parents were made to immigrate to Australia the way they were? And where was The Trace back in Chamber of Secrets when Dobby did the hover charm that Harry was blamed for? The epilogue definitely sucked – what became of Kreacher/the Dursleys etc etc. – yes it did read like fanfic.
Im soooo glad ron and hermione got together ive only been waiting for like what…5 years
When I turned what I thought was the last page and saw a 19-year-later epilogue, I literally moaned out loud. It would have been much better without the cheesy epilogue.
A couple other notes:
– I loved the fact that each of the horcruxes was destroyed by a different person.
– A little too much wandering aimlessly around the countryside … I was very, very happy when they finally got to Hogwarts.
– I was glad to see Neville kick butt at the end, but I’m still scratching my head over why he was able to pull Gryffindor’s Sword out of the sorting hat. After much searching of the interweb, I am apparently expected to believe that a true Gryffindor is able to summon the sword via the sorting hat regardless of where the sword is located? Is that a part of the Harry Potter canon established earlier in the series that I have forgotten? It seems like a huge leap.
Otherwise … fantastic, fun read that I’m glad I finished asap so I can’t run into any spoilers. I finished it in 2 sittings, starting Saturday afternoon and finishing Sunday afternoon (Marlin and I went to see OOTP in IMax/3D on Saturday evening, so it was a total Potter weekend for me).
I’m pretty sure the sword thing was established back in Chamber of Secrets. And when Scrimgeour is giving the trio their gifts from Dumbledore’s will, Hermione says something about the sword having “chose” Harry before so it should be his. Scrimgeour counters: “According to reliable historical sources, the sword may presents itself to any worthy Gryffindor.” This sounds as if the sword is almost sentient; that it will always be available to a worthy Gryffindor no matter where it resides or who possesses it. And that makes me smile, knowing that Neville had come into his own and was worthy enough to pull it out. 🙂
As for the Trace, I think they mentioned that it also picks up magic performed nearby. That’s why they had to use brooms to get Harry out. Harry also used it as an excuse to try to leave Ron and Hermione after the diner incident, because if he did still have the Trace, they wouldn’t be able to do magic near him.
I also liked that it wasn’t only Harry’s ability to love that helped end Voldemort, it was Snape’s unrequited love that started his whole downfall. Or rather Voldemort’s inability to recognize Snape’s love as something more than desire.
You’re totally right. Voldemort was an idiot for not realizing what it meant when Snape asked him to spare Lily. Very good point.
Ok, I’ll go ahead and say it: I didn’t much like it. Some of my reasons are posted at the link above, but briefly summarized: Too much countryside, not enough Hogwarts. Too many wham-bang “Harry ran then ducked then cast blah blah” action scenes, not enough wry Rowlingisms, too much ripped from other fantasy series (most notably Tolkien and Lewis, but others too — including that irritating Ma Weasley BITCH! bit), and too many arbitrary 2nd-lvl deaths/not enough 1st-lvl deaths.
At any rate, I’m sure I’m in a Mudblood minority, so for now I’ll just throw out this nitpicky question: Why wasn’t Kreacher freed by Harry giving him the locket? Does jewelry not constitute clothing?
Hmm. Interesting. I didn’t catch that. Either it’s not clothing, OR perhaps Kreacher was freed and chose to ignore it. He certainly seemed to like doing things for Harry after that, and he’d definitely want to stay with the house.
THANK YOU, Kevin! I am totally with you. I was reading everyone’s comments, wondering if my lack of similar enthusiasm was due to finishing the book at 2 a.m. last night? I’m still so tired, I’m not even sure I can articulate it as well as you…but yeah. I definitely wasn’t feeling it as much as I thought I would. (Tissues, Kris? What, when Hedwig died? I felt like she was just offing the “dispensable” characters, but saving those we *really* cared about. None of it affected me the way Dumbledore’s death did.)
I thought I’d get more of an explanation on Sirius going through that veil in OOTP. What was it?
And in this book…when RAB went back to put the fake locket in the basin, he drank the poison. How did new poison get in there for Dumbledore and Harry to find, when they got to the fake locket years later? Am I missing something?
And another thing that annoyed me…Voldemort clearly says at the end that he’ll wait for Harry IN THE FORBIDDEN FOREST for an hour. Where do Harry, Ron and Hermione go after Harry sees Snape die? Back through the Womping Willow tunnel, which comes back out RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FORBIDDEN FOREST. What, it took Voldy half an hour to get back to the forest the long way, so he conveniently missed them? (Did I miss something?)
Anyway, I feel like Harry as a Horcrux really ended up lamely. Everybody was talking about it as a possible theory when book 6 ended, and I think it was in JKR’s original plans maybe…but I feel like she almost altered this theory so many fans had already “guessed” it. I thought it was a little half-assed. Not that I wanted Harry to die or anything, but all of Dumbledore’s explanations in “King’s Cross” were a little lame to me (again, 2 a.m.)
I guess on the whole, I was thoroughly entertained, but it just wasn’t all that I had hoped or expected. Not a disappointment, but not sure it was worth staying up until 2 a.m. to finish!
(I waited the entire book to hear Harry finally tell Ginny how he feels, and never got that satisfaction. Instead, I get a flash forward to him being all grownup and a dad and married to her. I couldn’t even picture it.)
So. tired.
P.S. and another thing…it took me FOREVER to get through “The Wedding” chapter, because all I could think about the entire time was how it was the WORST TIME AND PLACE *EVER* to have a big wedding!
Not a surprise something bad happened, not a surprise the kids escaped unscathed. A few moments like that were just entirely too predictable (I guess I felt like she “mailed a bit of it in,” so to speak.)
The wandering-about-aimlessly-in-the-countryside that commenced was definitely unnerving (and reminiscent of LOTR) but I think it made the final battle scene at Hogwarts all the more breathtaking. By that time, you’re literally salivating for some real ACTION to finally happen, and it’s definitely a “Yesssss!” moment when McGonagall starts rounding people up to kick some ass!
Ok. I think I’m done now. Maybe.
Liked it a lot, agree with the sometimes long episodes that don’t really lead anywhere, but thats happened in all the books.
The one thing that i really noticed is when wizards don’t do magic when they should to do a simple task. there were a lot of incidents of this but one i remember is when they were manually moving bodies and injured from the battlefield during the hour of waiting. i was reminded of this when hermoine told ron something like “you ARE a wizard!” when he suggested that crookshanks could stop the willow from wailing. there were LOTS of thiings like that in the book.
epilogue was lame…especially that much later, i could have dealt with a year or 2 later, but 19?!?!
the hogwarts battle was great. what happened to all the giants during the final battle, they just decide to take off? they went to deliver harry’s body, and then just picked up and left? it is a book, but if you say they were there, and then they’re not, its the little things that bug ya.
I’ll echo what most people have said here– For most of the book: eh, not bad. For the epilogue: could have done without.
I really wanted a big twist at the end, one that would have been impossible to foresee but would have instantly made sense. The Snape-acting-under-D’s-instructions thing? Yeah, saw it. Same with Harry-as-Horcrux.
And what the devil was JKR talking about when she said the book wouldn’t be a bloodbath? If fewer people had died, the emotional impact would have been magnified immensely– see, for instance, the end of HP6.
Entertaining, though; I just would have liked a little more surprise, and fewer second-tier deaths.
I loved the book but I must agree with many of the previous comments. The epilogue almost made me gag! It was sweet and all, but it made everything seem too much like a perfect fairy tale ending.
I was really bored during the preparations for Fleur’s and Bill’s wedding and when they were wandering from place to place aimlessly. Those pages could’ve been put to better use; I would’ve liked to have seen more of the battle.
I never doubted Snape’s loyalty, and agree that it was easy to see it coming. Kinda teared up when he admitted to Albus that he had always cared for Harry.
I though Bellatrix was awesome in this book. She’s a great villain, but I think I’d rather seen Neville kill her.
To answer the question, I think the thing in King’s Cross was Voldemort’s soul, and it died a little more with the destruction of every Horcrux. Before Harry, or Voldemort I suppose, killed Voldemort, Harry told him he had seen what he would become- to try for some remorse.
It was ironic that Lupin reprimanded Harry for using “Expelliarmus” when they were trying to leave Privet Drive, and told him not to let that be his expected spell, when that is exactly what did Voldemort in.
The house elves held it down in this book. I was so sad for Dobby, too. Support S.P.E.W.!
P.S. I know it’s irrelevant, but what in the name of Merlin’s pants happened to Dolores Umbridge?! I wanted to see her die a painful death
She may well have. I don’t think Thickness and his controllers would have been very happy with her letting the intruders (plus the Muggle-borns) escape.
That’s true, Kris. After all, “we must not tell lies.”
I totally agree that it felt like fan fiction. There are thinks unexplained. Like the cloak being impervious to anything. Well then Dumbledore stuns Harry in book 6 when he’s under the cloak.Things like why Dudley was polite to Harry… that section seemed like half left or something. The Wand bit seems like a haphazard way to just get done with the story…One thing I wondered is why Voldy had to glide through air to travel anywhere.When he was checking for horcruxes,or travelling abroad he could have just apparated (and thus stolen all of Harry’s time to go to hogwarts and destroy tiara etc)… that doesnt make sense.
Then there were many JKR interviews when she had hinted that Prewett family history (Molly’s family) was important, something about Ginny being 7th daughter of 7th daughter and hence being gifted and would have important role, someone who suddenly can do magic later in their life etc…but none of these things happened.
Epilogue is too fan fictionish!!
Re: Voldemort flying everywhere.
Hary makes a statement in the book about Voldemort having to het “close enough” to apparate to a location. The war at Hogwarts was excellent, I’m hoping the movie truly does my imagination justice!
probably international laws prohibited him from apparating abroad! 🙂 that was my explanation to myself! But I kept on thinking that though he couldnt have apparated where horcruxes lay, he could have apparated somewhere close enough … I dont really recall that statement from the book. That mus be it then!
I thought Dumbledore’s use of the Elder Wand let him freeze Harry under the invisibility cloak. It was able to mend his wand when Hermione’s couldn’t.
Ah, that’s a good point! I had written that off as a plot hole.
Oh yes. Then it applies to sorting hat too. Voldemort sets it on fire during the battle and then 19 yrs later we have Harry telling his son that the hat takes peoples’ opinion into consideration… so maybe here was a missing scene in which Harry, before leaving the elder want in headmaster’s cabin touches the ash-remains of hat with its tip and says “Reparo”..
But I am more inclined to believe that its a hole in the plot which was neglected..
I finally finished the book over the weekend and I’m in the minority in that I loved both the book and the epilogue. It was totally cheesy at the end, but given that it’s a children/young adult series, I thought it was just right. I would hope maybe she was setting up a second series for the next generation, except those kid names were so awful she couldn’t possibly base a book series on them.
With respect to the question about Dumbledore being able to freeze Harry under in cloak, I don’t think the impressive quality of the cloak was its imperviousness to spells, but that the spells didn’t harm the cloak itself – only the person inside. There were no holes in it after the fact, and it didn’t lose it’s ability to make Harry invisible. Draco petrified Harry on the train in book 6 (I think) while he was wearing the cloak, also.
As for the sorting hat being set on fire, the way I understood it was that all the spells Voldemort cast with the elder wand appeared to take effect but didn’t. When he cast the cruciatus curse at Harry, Harry flew into the air as though hit with it, but felt no pain. So perhaps the hat appeared to go up in flames, but the flames didn’t actually burn it or Neville. That would explain how Neville was then able to continue on to kill Nagini.
I’m thoroughly satisfied with the book, and looking forward to reading it again before long. Maybe then I’ll pick up on more plot holes…
I was just glad harry didnt die and the fact mrs. weasley killed bellatrix with style. I didn’t expect that coming from her, she’s always been kinda sappy in the books o.O.
Great call about the previous cloak-petrification, Staci. You’re right; I totally missed that. So the cloak doesn’t necessarily make one impervious to attacks.
As for Neville being okay, I think it had less to do with the wand and more to do with Harry’s sacrifice. We just finished the audiobook and at the end, Harry says something that I missed when I was reading (probably because I was so close to the end I was practically hyperventilating). He says that because he willingly sacrificed himself to save everybody – just like his Mom did for him – he gave all his friends the same protection she did to him. That’s why Voldemort wasn’t able to kill anyone when he finally entered the battle. His spells just missed everybody.
Having gone through the book a second time, I have to say I like it a LOT more. I especially love the ending, which feels very British to me in its “Everybody defend the castle!” vibe. And it’s definitely *not* like Helm’s Deep or any of the other LotR battles, which felt glum and depressing to me. I got actual shivers (the good kind) when the suits of armour all went to defend Hogwarts. It’s just such jolly good fun, and very “mythic” in its own way (especially the end when all the townspeople attack as well). LOVED IT.
Dammit. I was hanging out for this scene. THEY GAVE IN TO THE FUNDIES!
You know, after listening to book 6 again (love the road trips to Dad’s), I think it’s interesting that after Dumbledore says over and over that Voldemort doesn’t understand that there are worse things than death, that the potion protecting the locket is something that, to Dumbledore, is vastly worse than death.
I was also going to point out the Draco curse after rereading the Tale of the Three Brothers, but well done Staci. The cloak is only ever said to give ‘constant and impenetrable concealment, no matter what spells are cast at it.’
I really need to start a new book. 🙂